How are you initially exposed to succession planning and how has it played a role in your career journey?

I think my initial exposure was probably around 2008. I started with Baylor Scott in 2003, and our senior leadership team within the organization handpicked about 25 people that they wanted to formally bring into the succession planning process. So really the organization decided to get deliberate about succession planning. They basically set up a year-long program with a formal curriculum and training. We completed a lot of didactic work through Southern Methodist University here in town and we all went through that inaugural course. A vestige of the program actually still exists today, and we've used it to train a lot of our leaders.

A lot of the content was around in-depth business practices, but also working outside of your comfort zone and being comfortable taking on responsibilities, in addition to crucial conversations, hiring, and more traditional business practices. Shortly after going through that program, I was approached for my first CEO position and it wasn't simply because of that program, but it was because the organization had gotten deliberate and had identified a bunch of people that if an opportunity comes open because of a vacancy or something like that, let's pick from this pool – I was in that pool and got picked.

So that was my first introduction to it and I, as a result, have thought a lot about it throughout my career and I think it's helped me. My focus on succession planning has helped me be more successful and honestly be more promotable, if that's something that others aspire to do.

That sounds like an amazing opportunity. I feel sometimes we receive training maybe once per week for a month. Having a program like that for even a year can help hardwire a lot of those habits.

Yes, and I think for us making it a formal process that people can talk about is very unique. I mean, I'd certainly never worked for an organization that had done it that formally before. Like I said, there’s still a similar program that exists today to grow future leaders and help us Identify the talent pool, but then also help grow and mature that pool of talent.

Related to that, what tools and resources have you utilized in your journey? Were there tools that you still pull from as you've built leaders under you or when you were a CEO moving into a different c-suite role? What resources have you used to help groom people under you to maybe eventually replace you?

From my perspective succession planning happens in one of two ways.

The first is what I just described where you take your existing team and help to nurture and grow them beyond what they may think they're capable of doing to the point of potentially replacing yourself or really targeting them for specific roles. For example, imagine you have a pharmacy manager position, and you don't have many candidates for it. Identifying a few people that might be very talented pharmacists, that you think could move into that manager role and then helping them with projects, delegation, and other tools to help them grow beyond their normal role.

So think to yourself, “okay if John my manager were to quit, who do I replace them with?” If you don't immediately know the answer, then try to be intentional about developing a plan from a succession planning perspective. So, growing your own, I think is one way to do it.

The second way that is equally important is your approach to hiring when you have a vacancy. Hire someone, especially if they report directly to you, that you think could replace you. Make sure that you're going after talent that is equal to your level at a minimum. For example, I've got a VP level position that is open, and I really spent a lot of time going through the candidate pool. And honestly, the person I'm hiring makes me a little nervous because he's really good and he can do a lot of the things that I currently do. I think having that kind of feeling that “okay, this person's going to be amazing for the organization and may, in some cases in certain circumstances, even outshine me.” That's a hard thing as a leader to get comfortable with, but I've gotten comfortable with it because it's actually helped me move up in the organization.

If you're Chief Pharmacy Officer, that's a hard job to replace if you do not have an heir apparent and there's not a massive talent pool that's willing to jump into that role. There's a lot of specific expertise that's necessary for a role like that. If you don't have an heir apparent, your ability, if it's desirable to move someone up in the organization is limited because some may think “oh we can't replace Connor because then who else will we put in that job” if there is nobody to put in that job. It's an interesting balance and you have some succession planning in that. Sometimes you've got to be thinking about “I'm hiring my replacement or I'm training my replacement.”

Yes, that makes sense. As you're talking to those people, do you evaluate them based on certain skills that they need? Do you have a standard document or is that just an intuition where you know you’ve lived through this role and know the best attributes to be successful?

What I try to do with these individuals is make it part of the performance management process. Really tailor conversations and provide articles and books on the art of delegation and crucial conversations, skills that leaders, particularly new ones, need to develop.

So I think developing a plan or specific document for that individual, which helps them over time. Develop some of the skills that are needed in order for them to move into a higher role. To me, that's most important because you may have somebody who is really good with people management, but they don't have a remote understanding of strategic planning or financial operations. Then help them gain access to resources, and even potentially include them in out-of-scope meetings and different activities that will help them gain additional expertise in your targeted area.

A lot of times I'll use conferences or ASHP boot camps and other various tools they offer. Say, “okay this may seem rudimentary to you, but I want you to attend the leader boot camp with ASHP because here's what I think you're going to get out of it, and it's based on some of these things we've already talked about.” ACHE also has a lot of good programming for hospital leaders that is really transferable across any department, and so I use a lot of those types of resources as well.

Great. Have you encountered any barriers or challenges to succession planning?

The biggest challenge is that you really do have to be intentional about it if you are a leader. If you're not thinking about succession planning, then it probably is not going to happen. Occasionally, you'll have someone below you like me, where in my first supervisor role I asked my boss “what do I need to do to get your job?”  He wasn't really succession planning, and I forced the discussion. That led to him and I having multiple discussions about next steps and some of the boxes I needed to check if I wanted to be a more advanced leader than I currently was.

Really great leaders anticipate that without employees coming to ask them. That's the biggest challenge as a leader, is really thinking about it and being intentional about it and dedicating the time to it, because it does take additional time if you're going to do it correctly. It's really sitting down and having conversations with your leaders, and those conversations can be really rewarding, because you're basically telling a person “here's what you're doing now, and I see you doing a lot more in the future. Let's chart a path to help you get there.” Some leaders may view those discussions as barriers or difficulties when I think it’s beneficial. That employee will likely be dedicated forever, especially if you follow through, because they understand that you've recognized capabilities in them that they may not have recognized themselves.

That's exactly what happened to me, which is part of the reason I'm passionate about it. My dream job was clinical pharmacy, and that was my job. It wasn't until my boss quit and the assistant director came to me and said, “I want you to be the manager over the clinical pharmacist” and I'm like “I don't want that job!” He had to convince me that it was a job I wanted, and we had a lot of discussions about it. I could have ultimately said “look, I just don't want to do this pick somebody else.” You've got to be comfortable with that potential outcome too, where you may want that for someone but that someone may not.

I know a lot of Pharmacy Chief Pharmacy Officers that had no desire to move outside pharmacy administration. It's certainly not for everybody and I don't think that's a bad thing. We need Chief Pharmacy Officers that are exceptional because there's so much you can accomplish in that capacity.

A barrier or challenge that came up in our group discussions is job descriptions that rarely reflect what we actually do. As you’re assessing team members in an institution, do you have a method to reevaluate job descriptions to reflect what skills are needed or what work is being done?

That's a really good topic. For this VP I just hired, the position had been vacant for almost a year. Whenever someone under me departs or gets promoted to new job, I always rethink that role. If I had to redesign it today, would it look exactly the same or would it be very different? With this VP position, the person that I had in that role before was very analytical and created data toolsets. That's not what we need anymore because we have those resources, and I determined more strategic planning was needed. So, I actually rewrote the job description and we as leaders need to think about that. If you're hiring an assistant director, think “okay, this is how the labor is divided today in my department. If I could redesign it or keep it the same, what would I do?”

A lot of times, it's when you have a vacancy that you can really make positive, transformational changes in a department and hire that next level person, and that typically requires a modification of the job description. I would like to think the majority of the job descriptions for my team matched the role that they're doing and also give them some stretch opportunities. I'm not perfect but I do redesign job descriptions almost every time I hire somebody.

That's fantastic. Usually HR asks, “do you want to post the standard?” And I'm like, yes, throw the standard out there and let’s see what comes. That’s such a good point, because post-COVID is changing for senior pharmacy leaders. Now it’s not necessarily “were you in clinical practice” or “do you understand the day-to-day of clinical teams,” but more revenue-focused with tighter timelines.

Yep. Completely agree.

Do you have any parting advice for current or future pharmacy leaders?

The most important thing pharmacy leaders can do is make your aspirations known to your immediate supervisor, no matter the role. If you’re a pharmacy manager and someday want to be a Chief Pharmacy Officer, there's nothing wrong in most cases with letting your boss know “I'd love to have some additional responsibilities that would help me move in that direction. The next time you get a project, can I help you with it or can it be delegated to me to see if I can handle it?” I think those are appropriate conversations to have.

The caveat is your boss has to be the type that would support and not be threatened by some of that. There's got to be some emotional intelligence around your approach because the worst outcome would be your boss feeling “this kid wants my job and now I'm threatened” and it could end up going the wrong direction. You have to understand the circumstances in order to have those conversations and approach them in a way that's certainly not threatening. Hopefully that's not the case. In most of my experiences throughout my career, it's been the exact opposite. Most leaders would love some help, and most leaders have a project or two that they would love to ask someone “could you do it for me? Give me a summary of what your recommendations would be to how to solve this problem.” Someone that reports to you may think is the best assignment in the world whereas for you it's just work.

If you are a leader, we talked about really being deliberate and starting to think about people working below their real potential. Think “how do I help them get closer to what I believe is their real potential?” Think about a person’s potential and what their capabilities might be and try to help arrange situations that they would benefit from and learn from to help them move up in the organization.

Interview conducted by Ganesh Chandran & Connor Hanson